An interesting debate

[girlsteve.livejournal.com]

As you may have noticed, I've always been quite a fan of unisex names, girls names on boys/boys names on girls etc. however, I appreciate that it's not to everyone's taste and that you have to be careful not to lumber a kid with a name that'll cause confusion and teasing their whole life just because of your gender views. 

The reason I bring this up is because a friend and I were having a discussion about names that I thought you guys might have some interesting comments on. 

The thing is, my name choices in this respect are kind of political. for the most part they're not - in lots of cases, I just think that some traditional 'male' names work better on girls and vice versa, so maybe I just have different taste to the world at large. But there is also an element of gender politics, because I've always thought that there isn't a big difference between the sexes and that any child should be free to find their own identity regardless of the sex they were born. I'm one of those people who would be quite comfortable to let their little boys play with barbies or wear dresses IF THATS WHAT THEY CHOSE TO DO. And this is the thing, its the choice issue. I'm not going to put my little boy in a dress to make a statement if he doesn't want to wear it, and giving the stigma that goes with cross dressing he probably wont and that's fine. But he can choose to without judgement from me. However, if i name him Rachael - as much as it's a pretty name, and as much as it has always struck me personally as kind of masculine and as much as I don't think he should be insulted to be called a girl (after all, what's wrong with being a girl?) - he's going to have to live with that whether he likes it or not. I've always been a firm believer that you shouldn't use your kids for your own ends, personal, emotional or political, and in the real world you can't make your kids a crusade.

My friend, who agrees with me on many issues of feminist politics, disagree's with me on this one. She says that if you raise a kid to be strong, secure and not sexist then they wont have a problem with having a name of the other gender and are no more likely to have a problem with it than if you choose some other name they didn't like. As she says, no child gets a choice in their own name. She reckons that if you like a girls name on a boy you should use it, and only when people start doing that are these social ideas going to change. She also points out that I'm a girl named Steve and it never did me any harm - quite the opposite. I love my name and I personally think it's helped me. But I dunno.... She quite likes Racheal for a boy, and part of my wonders if I should feel really guilt for using it as an off-the-top-of-my-head example, just in case her future son resents me for it....

So, long rambly issue. But for the troopers who read it, wdyt?

Comments

[tryyingtoevolve.livejournal.com]

THERE ARE NO WORDS FOR HOW MUCH I AGREE WITH YOU.

I'm a feminist, a lesbian, and just very liberal on issues of gender, so I feel like I'm open minded about this. And if I name my son Elliot and he decides that it's too masculine for him and he'd rather that his name was Josephine...well, that's his choice, and I will totally support that. But I'm not going to force MY views on gender onto my kids. They're already going to have enough trouble with their two moms without worrying about the teasing they might get for their names.

As for girls, I know that there isn't as much teasing for girls who have boys names as there is for boys who have girls names, but (a) I think it's sexist to give a girl a boy's name if you can't do the opposite, and (b) I *hate* it when people say that they want to give their daughter a boy's name because they want her to be 'strong.' It's like equating femininity with weakness. All the strong women I can think of, regardless of how I feel about them politically (Eleanor Roosevelt, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Nancy Pelosi, Margaret Thatcher, Indira Ghandi, Hillary Clinton), have really feminine names, and yet nobody's making the argument that they're weak. When was the last time we saw a FEMALE prime minister or president or senator with a boy's name? Sorry, that just bugs me so much. It's like saying that a girl can't be strong AND feminine at the same time, and as a cultural feminist, I'm totally appalled by that notion.

And as for it all depending on how you raise your kid, I don't think that's true. You can raise your kid to be the most loving, tolerant, nonsexist kid in the entire world, and if you give your son the name Shirley, he's still going to get teased and have problems with it his whole life. It depends on the way OTHER PEOPLE raise their kids. Maybe it'll all be okay and he'll grow up to be "strong" and "masculine" and nobody will say shit to him about his name because they're afraid of getting the crap beaten out of them by some 6'4, 250 lb. guy named Shirley, but...if your whole point is to turn gender stereotypes on their head, then why are you forcing your son to become a guy like that? Why not name him Nick or Matt or Mike and raise him to be kind, gentle, and loving, and not to be an overly masculine pig who beats people up if they make fun of his name?

[tryyingtoevolve.livejournal.com]

Wait, I think I may have read your post wrong. So...you think that you SHOULD use unisex names on kids, or do you think that you shouldn't because you shouldn't use your kids for your own political agenda? I feel like I'm missing something that explains the two contradicting statements.

[girlsteve.livejournal.com]

I'm opposed to giving kids unisex names purely for the purpose of gender politics. Some names I think are unisex and are becoming more unisex, and I don't mind someone naming their girl Riley or their boys Lindsey, even if they're traditionally though of the other way round, because they're accepted and common enough that the kid wont suffer because of it. But even though I agree with the political principle that gender shouldn't matter, in practice I don't think it's fair to lumber the kid with it.

Sorry, that might not have cleared it up - I'm not that good at explaining stuff!

[tryyingtoevolve.livejournal.com]

Okay, NOW I got it, haha. For the most part, I agree, I just dislike the practice of using boys names on girls (ex: Elliot, Riley, Logan), no matter how common they've become. Casey, Morgan, Robin, etc., which are all as unisex as can possibly be, are one thing, but I just have an issue with ones like Logan or Elliot.

[sloane-hd.livejournal.com]

I agree with you. I mean it's okay to give your child a unisex name but don't go calling your son Suzy or your daughter Roy. That's not on.
You have to keep in mind that your child has to go through life with it, even though he/she can change it later in life, the damage is done.
Like everyone always says: Think of the children!

[0o-faerie.livejournal.com]

I could not agree with you more.
Before we get to the name-part...it's such a relief to 'meet' someone who actually feels the same way as I do =D! Ugh, I cannot stand all those parents who freak out when their boy prefers to play with dolls. WHO CARES?!

Anywho. The names.
I believe I had a discussion about this matter with someone in this community too, about a week ago. It is complicated. I like some masculine (sounding) names on girls too, but that has nothing to do with my being gay or anything. I simply like the sound of those names, there is definitely no (political) agenda behind it. Just the sound, is all! Those unisex names I like aren't my all time favourites though, so the chances I'll ever use them are quite small. But still =)

In theory, I don't see why a female name on a boy would be wrong. In practice, however...the kid will probably get teased, especially in middle school. I feel that in society nowadays, it's more general accepted to be a tomboy, than to be a feminine boy. And although I wish it was different, it's not. And therefore, I feel that boys should not be given obviously female names, like...Rosalie, for example ;). Even if it was just to avoid confusion.

Sorry for the length ;) I find this stuff very interesting =)

[satunian.livejournal.com]

well, the problem with your friend's argument is that you're not the only one raising your kid... everyone he or she meets and every experience plays a part in raising your kid. I was picked on as a child (not for my name, for other reasons, but gender identity and sexuality did play into it). My parents were great parents and raised me fine, but that didn't stop people from picking on me, nor did my parents raising me make me immune to being picked on.

You can raise your son Rachael to be strong, secure and not sexist, but he can still be picked on by people when you're not around and it could cause him a lot of grief. Remember, they're kids, and you can't expect them to reason like adults. Unfortunately you also can't really count on the majority of adults to reason like adults, either, so I mean, if you REALLY want to give a boy a girls' name, go ahead but I'd advise to proceed with extreme caution. I personally still think it's a bad idea, and if you're trying to abolish forced gender identities based on a person's sex, try aiming for a unisex name.

[satunian.livejournal.com]

Also, you're right for not wanting to force your political views on your child. Even if you raise him very openly, he still might be a very masculine type of boy, and might feel uncomfortable with a girls' name, even if you wouldn't. Likewise you could also have a very feminine girl who wouldn't like to be named Michael, or whatever. If I were you, I'd probably find the unisex names I like most, name the kiddies that, and when they're older, if they'd prefer a more masculine.feminine name, we can work on that. No matter what, you don't know what kind of person your kid is going to be.

[americandiva.livejournal.com]

I've also given a lot of thought to this issues.

I am also a lover of unisex names..however I seem to lean towards using more masculine names on girls and opposed to feminine names on boys. That is not because I don't think a boy can't have a more feminine name or anything like that, it is just my preference names wise (I tend to like strong sounding names for anyone)

As much as i love traditionally male name for girls (I have a weakness for Blake and Parker for girls..and of course others like Peyton, Taylor, Quinn and Rowan) I don't know if I would ever use the ones that are really really rare on girls. For instance, Peyton, Taylor, Rowan and Quinn are consitered unisex by a lot of people. Blake and Parker and consitered more masuline. I have thought of using Blake and Parker and pairing it with a more girly name ..and using a double middle name but just calling htem Blake of Parker. I just know that I would hate it if when I was a kid...someone saw my name in print and did not know if I was male of female.

So personally...I think if a name is knowns unisex..its ok to use on either gender..but names like Blake and Parker..even though i love them...are going to stick to the guilty please list

sorry for my ranmbling. hope it makes sense.

[sandtree.livejournal.com]

And I don't agree at all. I'm sorry, but giving a girl a male name doesn't make her any more free from gender restrictions, it just makes her a girl with a male name. Feminism isn't about turning women into men, it's about women having the same amount of respect, AS WOMEN, and if the only way to do that is to give a girl a male name, that defeats the entire purpose. It's just perpetuating the stereotype that males are somehow better than females. As for giving a male a female name, all it will accomplish is that he'll get teased, and probably act even more 'macho' to compensate for it. Sad, but that's how the world is.

The point is that males and females should be given equal respect in society. Naming a girl Ryan or a boy Rachel isn't going to accomplish anything. We don't need to be mixing up the genders of names, we need to be making sure that a girl named Tiffany and a boy named Butch get the same amount of respect if the only thing that separates them is sex.

[amspeck-myworld.livejournal.com]

I really agree with pretty much all of this.

I feel that if the parents goal is gender neutrality, then choose a gender neutral name. Naming a boy Rachael doesn't say 'break gender barriers'; it really says 'look how anti-establishment we are!'. Swapping names does nothing to promote equality, in fact it makes the child's gender even more obvious - they will be 'the boy named Rachael' rather than simply 'Rachael'.

I want my son and my daughter to get respect for what they do, not the statement their names make.

[miss-tee.livejournal.com]

I feel that if the parents goal is gender neutrality, then choose a gender neutral name.

The problem with this is, what IS a gender neutral name?

[thejoysofjess.livejournal.com]

Jordan? Lee? Taylor?

[freezemyazaleas.livejournal.com]

Also: Quinn, Morgan, Riley, Casey, Tegan, Channing, Kelly, and my favorite name Blair. I prefer most of these on girls, but I could definitely picture them on either gender.

[miss-tee.livejournal.com]

So place names, occupations and former last names?

[thejoysofjess.livejournal.com]

Not across the board though. I wouldn't name a boy Savannah. Or a girl Hunter.

[miss-tee.livejournal.com]

My point is that there is no "unisex names" that have always been unisex, just names that have been appropriated into unisex name territory.

I'm not saying that anything's wrong with that, I have a name that is unisex now, I'm just sayin.

[freezemyazaleas.livejournal.com]

I agree so hard.

[0o-faerie.livejournal.com]

I agree with you, but some people are not trying to 'accomplish' anything with their choice of names. Some just prefer more feminine/masculine sounding names.
Apart from that, you are completely right about equal respect.

[blue-suspenders.livejournal.com]

I would name my kids names usually meant for the opposite gender but it would have nothing to do with politics or making them act a certain way. I just like some girl's names on boys and vise versa. However, I don't think I'd give my boy a flower name.