(no subject)

[ashadelic.livejournal.com]

In response to my post about the name Mitanjeli, it was written that, "If a person who is not Indian uses the name, it's cultural misappropriation, and therefore offensive. If a girl who comes from an Indian-American family wants to "Americanize" her name as a teenager, that's something all together different, and Anji or Mitzi are perfectly fine, IMO. They're both cute."

I'm going to state my opinion on the matter, and I would like to hear what the members of this community think. This is not an attempt to flame, I'm earnestly curious about other's philosophies on the matter.

I, however, completely disagree with the comment. I am free to choose the name of my children based on whatever criterion I deem appropriate. Granted, names like Allah, Buddha, Krishna, even Muhammad, Jesus and many others on that scale would absolutely be offensive if used by someone outside-- possibly even inside-- that culture. However, just because a name has root in a specific culture does not mean it is off limits to me because I'm not of that descent.

It might look odd for a white, American parent to have a son named Pedro or Julio. But does that make it "cultural missappropriation?" I certainly think not. I have absolutely no Italian blood in me whatsoever and neither does my husband, but if I want to use the name Giovanni or Alessandra that is my prerogative and anyone who finds that offensive is just looking for something to be offended about. Granted, Indian names may not be highly popularized in our Western culture, but that does not make them "off limits" to a westerner simply because they are not Indian. If this is the case, then I should never hear an Indian child named Samantha or Jessica. After all, cultural missappropration doesnt care which culture you're "misappropriating."

Anyone else, thoughts?

Comments

[x-lostinyou.livejournal.com]

I agree. As long as you are doing it respectfully (no sacred words, deities, misspellings), I don't see whats so wrong about it. I agree whole heartedly with your statement that if we are not allowed to use an Indian name, than no Indian child should ever be named something such as those. It's just hypocritical.

[ashadelic.livejournal.com]

Thank you. =)

[auntieda.livejournal.com]

Agreed.

[cathkitten.livejournal.com]

IAWTC.

[museofmyself.livejournal.com]

I mean no disrespect to anyone of any culture, but it really annoys me when someone says that naming your (for example) white, blonde, blue-eyed daughter "India" is wrong. As long as the parents like the name and it's not something cruel like "Poophead", then I see nothing wrong with it.

Basically, I agree with you wholeheartedly Ashadelic. :)

[ashadelic.livejournal.com]

Thank you. =)

[ashadelic.livejournal.com]

lol =)

[sotypical42483.livejournal.com]

I do agree with you. People give their children all kinds of names from different cultures and it's hypocritical to say some are okay and others aren't.

[mrsduryee.livejournal.com]

As a white, blond-blued lady married to a white, blond, blue-eyed man, who ADORES Hispanic culture and NAMES, I agree with you!

Sacred words and the names of gods should be off-limits if it might be disrespectful (Muhammad is like the third most popular name in the world though...so not so sure about that one...), but names from other cultures are COMPLETELY acceptable.

We may a little Emanuel, pronounced "Ay-man-u-well" running around our distinctly white home (and neighborhood and city!). Too bad. We love the name and the meaning and have utmost respect for the culture it came from.

[mrsduryee.livejournal.com]

*may have

[ashadelic.livejournal.com]

I mostly meant Muhammad in a personal perspective. As a Christian, I feel it would be inappropriate for me to name my child Muhammad, however anyone who doesnt have the same convictions as I is obviously free to use it should it suit them.

[elemmennope.livejournal.com]

People can have reasons, interesting meaningful reasons, for choosing names outside their own particular ethnic tree. I don't judge, because I don't have the slightest idea what those reasons might have been. Maybe someone's best friend who died tragically was Indian, or Chinese, or Irish, or Kenyan. Maybe they've lived abroad in that area. Maybe a book that was really influential to them was written by an author of that name. And in America especially, everyone are such mutts. Maybe they have an Indian grandmother on their father's side. Who knows?

It would be nice if they picked it for a reason, with real meaning and thought behind it. But heck, 95% of the people who pick "acceptable" white names (that's really what we're saying here right?) like Kate, Emma, or Aidan didn't get beyond "it's cute" either, so really what's the difference?

My particular heritage is Welsh, Irish, German and Finnish. But I do have some Italian, Greek, and Hawaiian names on my list. Why is Italian ok? But Indian isn't? Skin color? Hmmmm...

It's a global world, and I'm not interested in drawing hard and fast lines to keep people separate from each other.

[poespretty.livejournal.com]

I love this comment. and totally agree. :)

[artfuldodger.livejournal.com]

I should think that if someone is using a name, it's because they like that name. Therefore if I were to use, say, a Native American name for my child (I'm Polish), I'd consider it to be a compliment to the Native Americans, in that I'd be saying I love something from them. And likewise if a Native American person used a Polish name, I wouldn't consider it offensive at all - quite te opposite; I'd be tickled.

[ghost-dance.livejournal.com]

I completely agree. My own name is italian, but I have no ounce of italian blood in me. Did my parents commit some sort of cultural crime by using a name that wasn't from either of their heritages? No. My favorite names are Atticus and Rhiannon. I'm not from Ancient Rome or Whales. I'm not going to limit myself to names from my heritage.

[bopeepsheep.livejournal.com]

If you were from Whales I'd hope you'd have the decency to call your child Willy or Orca. Maybe Job if you were feeling playful.

[turabiannights.livejournal.com]

Jonah, I think you mean! I prefer the Whelsh names Shamu and Killer (for a boy!)

[bopeepsheep.livejournal.com]

Doh, yes, I do mean Jonah. Thank you. I've also just remembered Pinocchio.

I'm liking Shamu, there. Killer might be putting a few too many preconceptions on the poor child. Keiko's a nice Whelsh name but people might think she was Japanese.

[poespretty.livejournal.com]

gah. LOL. you two are killing me.

[heyitsrebecca.livejournal.com]

I agree. =) I'm not Hebrew or English, but my kids have Hebrew & English names.
I can't imagine being offended because someone from a different culture used a name exclusive to my heritage. Please. I have bigger problems in my life. LOL

[krosp.livejournal.com]

I think that in the context of your friend who had spent a lot of time in India, she has every right to use a name from there because she probably understands the culture and is sure that the name is an appropriate one. I don't really like the idea of someone just looking at a list of "indian names" and saying "Oh that one is so pretty, I'll use it". If they really like that name, they should research it first and make sure they know a bit about the background it comes from, what it means, notable people who have had it, etc. Otherwise their ignorance could end up being offensive to someone of that culture, if there is something about that name that they didn't know but should have.

But I do agree with you

[turabiannights.livejournal.com]

I believe it's a tricky question, honestly. I'd like to say that I am 100% for people not giving two straws about name origins... but naming often gets more complicated than we might like. It depends on the name, and it depends on the namers. I run into so many people online who feel that their use of an "ethnic" name somehow makes them magically able to deeply relate to that ethnicity - one American woman was, literally, attempting to "breed the Irish back into her kids" by giving them Irish names. WTF? And some names, as you say, are culturally sensitive. Saoirse is a great example of this - many innocent Americans like the sound and like what they perceive the meaning to be, but are wholly unaware of its rather loaded history.

The worst is when people claim a name is from a particular culture, and it's not even a name in that culture. Karma and Dharma? Not names in Indian culture. Chenoa and Cheyenne? Not Native American names. I find that to be grossly disrespectful, honestly. It's exoticizing and patronizing and sickeningly ignorant.

In short: there is nothing inherently wrong with borrowing names from other cultures, but there is a great deal that can go wrong when doing so. Just exercise caution.

[bopeepsheep.livejournal.com]

I know a woman who gave her first son the 'Native American' name Chakotay.


Can we spot at least one flaw in this, boys and girls? I know you can.

His brother's named Kirzon, FWIW. But that time she knew what she was doing, instead of just taking her husband's word for it...

[temptress.livejournal.com]

*dies laughing* best star trek joke ever.

[ashadelic.livejournal.com]

I absolutely agree with you!

[cherryrider.livejournal.com]

I agree with you.
Whoever said that seems a little insecure.

[ashadelic.livejournal.com]

At first I read that as you saying you "totally disagreed" with me and then I read your example and was very confused. I was thinking, "but.. that totally backs up my point.. whaaaa?" heh.. I'm a dork=)

[feelslike-2day.livejournal.com]

I too, disagree. My list would be so boring if i only had "appropriate" names on it. My name is derived from celtic roots (altho has been over-used so you wouldnt know) and there's no celtic in me ANYWHERE
There are so many beautiful names out there people should be able to choose what they want. Altho I do agree with Krosp, be careful when you do so.

[maude.livejournal.com]

To be honest, I personally think it's dumb when I come upon a little white girl is named Miyoko or something. True, I don't know the ancestry or story behind the name, but to me names that are so distinct to one culture just look stupid on another. That being said, I have no problem with borrowing names from other cultures, and it's not something anyone should be insulted about. I guess it's just a personal preference. :)

[poespretty.livejournal.com]

but what do you think about a little Asian child with a very 'white' name? I think you see this all the time, especially with babies adopted by white parents from foreign countries. I know someone in this position and they are planning on using the name Eugene (which IMO is pretty white) in honor of a family member but also using his given Korean name as a mn.

[maude.livejournal.com]

Because the only Asian kids I've met with 'white' names are Asian-American, it makes sense to me. I guess it just bugs me because the example I gave in particular makes me think of geeky white parents that are way too into anime and don't really know anything about Asian culture beyond comics and cartoons...or something.

[poespretty.livejournal.com]

when you put it that way (about being way into anime etc), that would bother me too. a lot actually. especially bc there's no 'real', specific meaning or history of the child's name.

[cuidate-mucho.livejournal.com]

Mmm definitely agree. Saying a name belongs to only one culture seems pretty close-minded to me. Especially if you're choosing a baby name from a culture that you love or after a person that you want to honor. I think naming a baby after a religion that you don't follow might be sort of tacky, though.

[polkadotskirt.livejournal.com]

Well said! It's just racist to say names only belong to one culture, it's trying to separate the world into categories and stop people appreciating other people's cultures. I'm english, some of my favourite names come from french, welsh, irish, italian, german, all over the place! and names that the person who made the comment will hear every day are not from the culture of that person. For example, hannah is a hebrew name, but not all hannahs are jewish. Charlotte is a french name, not all charlottes are french. There are loads of other examples, but basically, i agree with you! Offensive it is not.

[rawness.livejournal.com]

How is that racist? Race != culture.

[polkadotskirt.livejournal.com]

Cultures are made up of different races, certainly in Europe and America, so saying it's wrong for cultures to mix and share things is saying it's wrong for races to mix, which seems racist to me! I don't know if the writer of the comment meant that, but that's how it came accross.

[rawness.livejournal.com]

No, that's absolutely not what the poster of the comment about cultural appropriation meant. They're saying that people shouldn't ninja names that have meaning to a certain culture (read: not a race, a culture) because they are ZOMG SO KYUTEEEEEE

[polkadotskirt.livejournal.com]

Fair enough, I'm sorry I missunderstood that.

[rawness.livejournal.com]

I clarified further in my second comment to you :)

[polkadotskirt.livejournal.com]

yeah and you make a good point, but I still think different origin names can be used by anyone. I do agree that everyone should consider and appreciate ANY name before they use it, not just names from other cultures. And I agree that "because it's cute" can lead to meaning problems! Sorry that I missinterpreted.

[rawness.livejournal.com]

A good example of this are people who use Native American names because they "sound pretty". 99.9% of the time, these people have no ideas what the name means or whether or not they're ripping off something sacred.

Kind of like these moron teenagers/20 somethings getting kanji tattooed on them because it's "cool". Same thing.

[rawness.livejournal.com]

"Anyone else, thoughts?"

You're a drama whore? You got the answers you wanted in your last post, why do you need validation? You want a pat on the back for taking something that's possibly sacred to another culture because its OMG SO KYUTEEEEEEE?

" If this is the case, then I should never hear an Indian child named Samantha or Jessica."

I honestly doubt you would unless the child was Indian-American, which makes it a whole different situation.

[ashadelic.livejournal.com]

LOL! Drama whore! =) The post about Mitanjeli was nearly a week ago and the reply that caused me to ask for others opinions (in this post) happened two days after that original post. You jumped on the other poster's bandwagon a few days late.. the whole mess was over in my mind, and when you replied I just wanted to know what you thought-- I even invited you to THIS discussion in my very first reply. I only linked you to this post so you could see I wasnt the only one who thought it wasn't a big deal. I never asked you to reply to it.

And, I honestly doubt I would hear the name, too.. but furthermore, I dont CARE if an Indian woman living in India wants to use a traditionally American name.

If you can find any, and I mean ANY source that points to Mitanjeli as a name sacred to the people of India, I will absolutely retract everything I've said and apologize to you. I'm not looking for drama, and never have been. I have a differing opinion from yours and therefore, in your mind, shouldnt be allowed to breathe. I'm a menace to society because I love a name outside my culture! I don't love it because it's OMGZ SO KYUUUUUTE! But any reasoning behind why I love the name would be lost to you, I believe.

[rawness.livejournal.com]

Like zomg I was a whole couple days late on your post zomg life outside of livejournal SIN SIN SIN!

And just because you don't care if someone uses an American name doesn't mean they (on a whole, as a people) don't care if you use their names. Not even because it's sacred to them, but a lot of people cultures are sick of Americans ripping them off for ANY reason.

And no I really can't fathom why you'd want to name your kid something that sounds and looks like mint jelly but hey at least they'd have a thick skin.

"I have a differing opinion from yours and therefore, in your mind, shouldnt be allowed to breathe. I'm a menace to society because I love a name outside my culture!"

Please. Martyr yourself some more. Go on.

[ashadelic.livejournal.com]

Lol.. you really are hilarious. I won't be surprised if you comment back to this one so you can "get the last word in" but I dont care. Our opinions differ and they're not going to mesh anytime soon, so I'm done.

P.S. If you've noticed, I've said at least 4 times that I'm not planning to name any of my children Mitanjeli. I think the name is beautiful, but I have no intent to use it.=) Good thing you got all worked up over something that's really a non-issue.

[rawness.livejournal.com]

Thinking you're pathetic != worked up.
Like I said though, martyr yourself some more.
And whether or not you actually planned on using the name was irrelevant, but that went right over your head *patpat*

[rawness.livejournal.com]

oh and i didnt reply because i wanted to have the last word, i replied because i had something to say. what a sin.