Names and languages (some food for the thought)

[velkoria.livejournal.com]

I know this is not something most people think about a lot but I guess it could never be far from my head and I tend to look at names with three (or sometimes four, but rarely) different perspectives. I speak fluently 2 languages, not so fluently but still good enough 3 and add in all the other languages I catch on after a few minutes of listening to it it goes up to 5 or 6. Because of this, it's hard for me to see these names being spelled like they 'sound' and not see them as names that make no sense.

I know not a lot of people think on this but I don't know... I mean languages and traveling is something I grew up believing to be extremely important and when I have children the idea of them speaking only one language is kind of... out the window, so I tend to go for correctly spelled named because of things like this.

Everyone in any language that uses the alphabet English uses is going to recognize Olivia, even if the sound changes from one language to another it is a solid true name. Now, what happens when someone who doesn't speak English sees the name Alivia? Well to Spanish speakers the sound changes dramatically and French speakers would probably not even recognize it. Sure, names won't all sound right in all languages but they can be recognized. My sister's name changes in our main three languages but no matter where she works Irene will always be a recognizable name to her bosses, clients and co-workers, no matter if it's pronounced EYE-reen, ee-WREN-nay or ee-WREN. Of course this also happens to names that are a bit more obscure, like for example Aurora. Sure, the pronunciation of said name changes dramatically but it is also recognizable.

The point is, we want the absolute best for our kid's future and sure, names sometimes are nuts and change but I think people should think really on the future a lot more and when you think of misspelling a name think about if that's truly a) necessary and b) optimal for a child's future. Of course naming is your decision and I am *not* saying that you should think of every name out there and try and pronounce them in different languages because that's something that not even I do and some names will not be able to be pronounced in every language or will be extremely difficult (one of my favorite names, Rhiannon, is a tongue twister to my parents) but when you have a name that is in the popular range like Ophelia, Olivia, Elijah, etc. then changing them to Afilia, Alivia and Elyjah only makes it dumb, unrecognizable and honestly changes the whole name! Not to mention... it makes parents look dumb.

Comments

[harinakshi.livejournal.com]

It's hard for me to consider how they will sound in other languages because I speak one language, used to know two others a bit but they slipped out of my brain after high school. So I can only hear the English pronunciation and it's hard to try to pronounce them with other accents, etc. Of course, I'd never use a misspelled name, well, maybe Lilly, I dunno, I don't like the look of Lily as a name, but that's it.

[laminy.livejournal.com]

First, I just want to say, that I speak English and I pronounce Olivia and Alivia different ways. It's subtle, like Isabelle and Isobel, but I wouldn't expect people who don't speak English to say Alivia the same as Olivia because I don't.

I only speak English fluently, so I only worry about what a name will sound like/if it will be easily pronounced in English. Not that that is really the ultimate determinant for me, since I would definitely use Saoirse, and I do like Niamh. I took French for six years and Spanish for one and I have no idea how any of my names would be pronounced in those languages.

I just wouldn't change the spellings of the names I like because I don't feel the need to be creative. My only choices are when it's something like Sebastian (which I hate) or Sebastien (which I love) - when a name has more than one legitimate, commonly accepted, spellings.

[duckduckcaboose.livejournal.com]

I completely agree. To me, "alternative"/"creative" spellings (whatever you want to call them) just look STUPID. My name is Melissa, and while people pronounce it differently everywhere (I often wish I was Hispanic because I love how they say "may-LEE-sah"), it is never difficult for anyone.

When I see names that vary wildly from the traditional spellings, my first thought will probably always be "Wow, their mom/dad must be a moron."

[theljfromheck.livejournal.com]

I hadn't thought about this really. I only speak English so I don't know how my kids names would be pronounced in other languages. To me it doesn't seem like they'd be a problem, but I don't have much to base that on other than they're names and spelled right.

[velkoria.livejournal.com]

THAT was my point actually.. the whole spelling thing because it's something recognizable really... not how it's pronounced but that someone will look at it and be able to see it's a name and not something that just you came up with in the middle of the night.

[theljfromheck.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah. I definitely prefer "normal" spellings. I really like that people can just look at the name and immediately know what it is. Now if only my last name was like that. lol

[grasshulaskirt.livejournal.com]

Yes, you are speaking of universal names.

Most folks who name their kid something very American, speak only one language and don't travel a lot , chances are the kids will follow their parents lead and do the same!

I've got a future daughters name picked out that is easy in German and French and English, but no boys names yet.

[gipro2003.livejournal.com]

How names are pronounced in different languages is actually very important to me also and I see your point exactly. I speak 3 languages fluently, and it is important for me to give my child a name that is easily recognized and pronounced not only in English, but in my mother tongue (German) and Spanish, since I live in a highly Hispanic area. (Good thing most names sound similar in Spanish and German.)

[velkoria.livejournal.com]

German is my next language for sure, need to add another anglo language in there! I've got French (which I would be perfectly fluent in if I practiced more) and Spanish which basically means I also understand Italian and Portuguese but on the anglo side just English and my friends that speak German make fun of me in German all the time xD It's okay though because most of them dun speak French =P

[th3-unicorn.livejournal.com]

I was also raised multilingual and I attribute my name fetish to that =)
It's very important to me that a name stays the same throughout most languages, and I dislike names that are modified to suit the speaker's language, at any extent. For example, in Italy there's a growing trend (of illiterate parents, apparently) that decided it was "cool" to name boys Maicol, which is the phonetic translation of Michael, but in no way a proper name.
That's simply too trashy for words.

[velkoria.livejournal.com]

I don't mind changing names really, one of them is Irene which I tend to like in all three of the pronunciations above but what I do look for is names I know can be pronounced without the person's tongue... having a cramp in the process.

I know what you mean about the phonetic translations! I loathe Alivia because it is NOT Olivia... same happens here with the name David because David is Spanish is not pronounced like that (as you must know, it's Duh-veed) so they name the poor children... Deivid and it's like 'why? -_-' another one is John turned to Yon and Diana is turned to Dayana.

[velkoria.livejournal.com]

wow, this is extremely interesting! I had classes in ASL and I could sign a little (but now I only know the alphabet because that's one thing I never practice, sadly) but I had never thought about it this way.

Thank you for your input though, another reason to hate Kr8tyf names even more!

[solitudete.livejournal.com]

That's really interesting! I never thought about how terribly spelled names would create problems for speakers of ASL. That must be a real pain.

[starskye.livejournal.com]

I hate "creative" spellings also. I never thought of it from the perspective of ASL, but like everyone else said, just another reason to be annoyed when people use these awfully spelled names. From the perspective of the person with the name, it must be a pain to always be spelling your name out. "No, it's not Jessica, is J-E-S-S-Y-K-K-A-H.

[spaceandclouds.livejournal.com]

I agree with you. My children will most likely speak more than one language as well/will have to "deal with" two cultures, so I can see where you're coming from. All this...creative spelling that's going on nowadays may work quite well in English, but in any other language Alivia is no longer Olivia, like you said.

On a sidenote, I really like the name Isobel, but only when it's pronounced in Dutch (or French or Spanish, for that matter): EES-oh-bel. In English it just sounds like Isabel, which is boring.

[theljfromheck.livejournal.com]

I was talking about this post with my s/o and I was reminded of a friend of mine. This is somewhat related, but anyway, she named her daughter Pamela but pronounces it puh-may-luh or puh-muh-lah, she seems to interchange them and says that's how its pronounced in Spanish. She gets really offended when people pronounce the name like Pamela Anderson.

[velkoria.livejournal.com]

I know people that are like this! I don't care, really, either way I know you're talking to me and I think it's almost a bit silly to ask stuff like that. I mean if you want to sure, thing but don't get upset at people for stuff like that, you know?

I find it hilarious though that most English speakers will not say Jesus n English! In school there were a few of us who are Hispanic and all our names got changed but when it got to Jesus they would say Hey-sus not Jee-sus and he used to get jokingly offended and asked to be called Jesus. I know it¿'s because of the whole Jesus Christ thing but it was funny as hell!

[theljfromheck.livejournal.com]

Yeah really, people aren't going to assume it's pronounced how you want it. I've looked it up and can't find anything on a Spanish variation of the name so I don't know if people in Spanish speaking countries use the name or anything.
It's almost the opposite of the kre8yv spellings. Like saying Heighleigh is pronounced the same as Hayley just spelled different. Pamela is spelled like Pamela but pronounced different. I don't want to assume she's making it up, but people can just pronounce names however they feel like and tell people they're all wrong.

I remember being confused by the name Jorge as a kid. I didn't meet a Jesus until I was much older but we called him Jee-sus jokingly.

[velkoria.livejournal.com]

I understand people are OMG SO NATIONALIST or whatever (which I think is dumb... because eh... things that don't belong in this community) but you know what? I cannot go up to someone who does not speak a language and say 'you MUST say it like this...' sometimes things are pronounced a certain way for you, sure but it might be complicated for people to say them because of their main language.

I would never be like 'no, say Aurora, roll your R's!' because that's just mean of me. Sure, there are things that are widely accepted as that being a name of something like... Gatorade, it's named Gatorade not in Spanish and it's nothing that's OMG SO DIFFICULT... but yeah anyway, done ranting :P

[theljfromheck.livejournal.com]

Ugh. I grew up in Colorado and I'm used to saying tortilla, amarillo, toquito... uh... other Spanish words at least somewhat Spanish-like(I cannot for the life of me rill my r's but I can try lol) and I moved to Ohio and people freak out at me for saying things "right" or what is right to me. All I think of is Napoleon Dynamite and the quesadiLLas.

But then places like Mexico or Hawaii I pronounce in English. Yay for picking whatever words you want to say correctly! :D

[solitudete.livejournal.com]

I've run into the same issue; I speak French and English and need to consider whether a name will make a good transition. For example I love the French names Manon and Christophe, but they both sound awkward in English (and everyone will want to change the latter to Christopher).

As for kre8tiv names, I'm a copy editor and can't stand common spelling and grammar mistakes, so when someone has a horribly spelled name it just makes that person and the parents look like complete idiots.

[velkoria.livejournal.com]

I love Manon but in Spanish and English yeah... not working =(

As for Christophe I think that's a bit more acceptable really but you're right, might get changed to Christopher.

I make a lot of mistakes when writing things, specially for livejournal or what not because of my dyslexia but seriously... I get 0.5 points taken off per error at school (and there's only 2 points... you fail with an 09) sooo I am rather careful with grammar and spelling which also makes me hate kre8tif names even more.

[starskye.livejournal.com]

I agree with everything you have said here. I only speak English, but I don't like names that aren't spelled right. I too think it just makes the parents look stupid. Your kid is not going to be any more cool/original because she's got an extra K in her name, or a Y instead of an I. I feel sympathy for those who must always correct people, or always have to say things like, "It's Stephani, with just an I, not an IE". Or be called "Courtnee, with two EE'S". wouldn't life be much easier if they were just plain Stephanie and Courtney?
I understand some names have two spellings that are both correct, like Sofia and Sophia. That does not bother me as much. It might be a culture or language preference, but the name is still able to be recognized, whereas something like Kourtnee just looks foolish, sorry.
I travel quite a bit, but since I don't know another language fluently I never considered how names would sound in any other language but English, but even still, I only like names that are spelled right. This topic makes me even more firm in my dislike of creatively spelled names. Now that I think about it, I would want the name I choose to be recognized (within reason) in most languages. I think that this can be achieved if one sticks to correctly spelled, legit names.

[kitchen-poet.livejournal.com]

Hmmmm, English is my first (and most fluent) language and I still have trouble pronouncing/understanding some kry8tyve spellings.
However, I teach GED students and for a lot of them English isn't their first language, nor do they speak it well, but I see way more kry8tyve-ly spelled names used for their children than I see in the general populace.

[velkoria.livejournal.com]

of course it happens everywhere... it is still dumb and hard for people. Like when people spell the whole David thing Deivid here so it 'sounds' like David, may be it's phonetically correct in Spanish but it makes no sense in English.

[compulsivelyme.livejournal.com]

Huh. Well, my name is Meredith and that is not a mispelling. However, I can't even tell you how many people from all over the world can't even begin to tackle it properly and to whom it's totally unrecognizable. "Th" is not an especially common sound and it can become a "t" or an "f" or an "s" depending on who is trying to pronounce it.

All that to say: I hate uncommon spellings too, but I don't know that I can agree with trying to name my child something that can easily be pronounced and understood in many languages. When I booked a trip to Spain with friends, the Spanish travel agent was astounded at the length and complexity of my name and my friend Jonathan's. As we spelled them out for her she kept asking us in the middle whether we were at the end yet.

[velkoria.livejournal.com]

No, see I am not saying that they can be pronounced in every language. My parents can't make the Th sound but my point is that for names that are widely recognized as names like the ones up there the whole 'phonetic' spelling is dumb. Olivia is a name that is recognizable in any language, same as Mary and Aurora also John, Elijah etc... not the same way to say them at all and well I don't know how Jonathan is hard because I have people around me who only speak Spanish named Jonathan.